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Jennifer Fenring	Posted - 2010.06.09 09:31:00 - [1] Originally by: Pantload "Leave the damn learning skills alone. Newbs that don't like them need to HTFU or GTFO. Simple as that. The world does not rearrange itself to accommodate you." And what if it's not just "newbs"? What if the majority of old players also want them out? What if CCP wants them out, eventually? The world does not rearrange itself to accommodate you either!
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.10 13:12:00 - [2] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 10/06/2010 13:14:50 Originally by: Cash Render Actually, I have no deep seated desire for them to feel the same pain I did. Yes you do. It's called cognitive dissonance: whenever people do things they don't really like it causes contradiction. They take that away by ridiculing it or actually making themselves think it was good - why else would they have done it? That way their mind is consistent again but it's just a lie out of convenience. Originally by: Pantload Look lady, You and the other broad have got to get ahold of yourselves. I want the learning skills left in the game. Ergo I'm the same as the racist trash who supported Segregation? really? REALLY?! That is a seriously whacked out comparison. Oh and.. We're not in grade school here. We have to move past "ooooo, he said a dirty word". I'm just calling them like I see them. What was meant (apparently it's very hard to understand) that there's always very conservative people around that cling to whatever exists, however good or bad it is, just because they don't want changes. No-one accused you of everything except a conservative mindset. And rudeness. Both of which are hard to deny.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.10 13:55:00 - [3] Originally by: Pantload Oh and things don't HAVE to change. You WANT them changed. Huge distinction ( apparently that's very hard for you to understand ) I more or less stated that as an opinion, not as a hard fact. Apparently you didn't notice. Too bad. You find it surpising that you don't really make a progessive impression? Really?
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.11 08:59:00 - [4] Update: Originally by: Tippia The problem is to (..) find a good balance between on the hand taking away skills people have spent time training and/or giving them for free to new players, and on the other hand creating a solution that's not a DB nightmare to implement and is fair to everyone. You can watch the latest statement on the matter here, as part of the "New Player experience" presentation from Fanfest 2009. By the looks and sounds of it, as soon as they figure out a good solution, the learning skills will die in a fire. I don't know if it's feasible from a DB standpoint, but the best suggestion I've heard so far is to simply tack 12pts onto everyone's attributes, set the new attribute minimum to 17, strip everyone of the SP used for learning skills and then use this nifty double-speed training feature to reimburse those SP (basically, calculate how much each SP char has in learning skills, set the "double bonus ends at x SP" to whatever you have now + that calculated SP value, and let everyone spend that training bonus on whatever they want). Everyone happy? I am!
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.06.13 11:29:00 - [5] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 13/06/2010 11:31:46 Originally by: CyberGh0st Again, removing learning skills would definatly not be a game breaker to me, but it certainly is usefull to weed out the impatient. 1. As if the remaining 28 years of skilltraining doesn't require extreme patience 2. As if extreme patience is the main charateristic of a good, nice or fun player. There's horrible patient people and very nice impatient people as well you know. Anyway I don't know how many of you have actually seen Tippia's linked vid but it's clear CCP WILL one day take them away, they only feel uncomforbale with finding the way to do it and finding a appropriate compensation for existing players without causing too much trouble. But I guess we will have to be patient .. also for that ^^ CCP sometimes reminds me of the LOtR ents .. "don't be hasty"
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.02 13:12:00 - [6] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 02/07/2010 13:16:05 Originally by: Cash Render blah blah Still you haven't explained why all the other 100,00 changes are good for the game and removing the learning skills aren't. You may personally loved training them but I'm sure no-one will miss them. I even dare to say that the change it makes is very small and doesn't affect game mechanics at all. It mainly affects new characters. And unless you haven't read any post in this thread you'd know that what is proposed is granting the +10 attributes to all players and giving the SP back to those who already trained them so we all get a free 2 months worth of SP, new and old players alike.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.04 11:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Cash Render Please provide evidence of this. As stated repeatedly, the fanfest video everyoen seems to say proves this simply states that CCP doesn't like the current state fo the learning skills, but DOES NOT want to remove them because of anger this would cause. Unless you ahve something concrete to support your claim to them saying they will, it's an empty daydream that so many hope for. If CCP says "I mean honestly one way is just taking them out of the game and reimbursing players their skillpoints and money." as a possible solution, I wonder what the problem is other than a way to remove the learning skills from the game? They may not actually remove them from the game but grant everyone 5/5 - but that¦s just a theoretical difference. Giving them for tutorials was aonther (non-viable) option so apparently they just want to get rid of them in such a way that new players don't have to go through months to train them. Which all effectively comes down to the same: keeping the learning skill bonuses but minimizing the time and effort needed to get them maxed out. Perhaps my reading comprehension may be severely lacking but I can't make anything else from it?!
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.04 12:50:00 - [8] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 04/07/2010 12:53:01 Originally by: Reldor Silverheart That statement can translate into alot of things, but you have to put it into the kontext of the actual discussion during the fanfest, just taking quotes out of their context won't work, well except when it comes to sensation media. Well from the whole of the conversation (and also related interviews, posts from CCP people) it's very clear that they don't like the fact that new players have to go through months of learning skill training. I'm not saying they're going to act upon it anytime soon - or at all (in fact the 1st CCP post about it I saw was from 2006) - but I think it's definitely proven that CCP doesn't like their learning skills and want to find a way to get rid of the way it currently works. Granting and reimbursing was one of the suggestions but it was very clear that restrospect they'd rather had they hadn't introducted them all in. If you deny that you're just picky.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.08 10:22:00 - [9] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 08/07/2010 10:23:42 Originally by: Svarty II I think the learning skills are a great idea. You don't HAVE to learn them. If you want to make learning easier, then do that, but don't remove the learning skills. The same flawed argument again. Yes you can drive a car with 1 gear but having more is pretty mandatory to be able to use the car if you want to get anywhere withing a reasonable timeframe. More gears may be "optional" but pratically it isn't.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.13 08:47:00 - [10] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 13/07/2010 08:50:16 Originally by: AterraX Another supporter of welfare help. Why shoud people get attribute bonusses for free? This is n't WoW and the paleyers whining about learning skalls want to WoW'ify EvE...stop please. 1) Pure welfare...getting +10 on your attribute...for doing nothing. NO! 2) Even if you refund my ISK and SP, I will not be happy...I trained to to get ahead/keep up in the long run, so a big fat NO! I am not going to be part of the grand welfare scheme to make all equal in Eve with no effort. But HEY you already get +8 to all and +7 Charisma when creating a character ... for doing nothing! The starting stats and general skillspeed are totally arbitrary. And the "wowifying" argument is completely hysterical. How does removal of learning skills make EVE more like WoW? I even dare to say that in WoW you have to "work" for your SP while EVE gives them "for free", it's 100% "welfare". Time waiting and doing nothing does NOT equal "work" or "effort". Ask your boss!

Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.13 09:26:00 - [11] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 13/07/2010 09:26:49 Originally by: AterraX Originally by: Jennifer Fenring But HEY you already get +8 to all and +7 Charisma when creating a character ... for doing nothing! The starting stats and general skillspeed are totally arbitrary. But you don't get +10 on all attributes, so what is you point? The point being that you're "given" +8s "for free", "welfare", "instant gratification" and so on. Why is +8 undiscussed, good, and +18 isn't? Or +10? Or +12? As I said, it's totally arbitrary. If CCP decides to make it +10, who cares? Originally by: AterraX Quote: And the "wowifying" argument is completely hysterical. How does removal of learning skills make EVE more like WoW? I even dare to say that in WoW you have to "work" for your SP while EVE gives them "for free", it's 100% "welfare". Time waiting and doing nothing does NOT equal "work" or "effort". Ask your boss! I struck a nerve I see. Skills don't work like grinding, I'll give you that...but to remove learning skills makes EvE more like WoW. Unlike now, where learning skills differenciate players. Those that HTFU up...and tranied the leraning skills relevante for them. And those that whine, becuase they want the cookie for free. Stop ****fying Eve. I still don't get the point. In WoW characters can't be "everything" like in EVE but very much restricted according to their "class" so in a way far more differentiated. Next to that alsmost everybody trains the learning skills so whatever it is that makes characters different it's definitely not* the learning skills.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.13 14:44:00 - [12] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 13/07/2010 14:46:43 Originally by: Pantload This argument is full of failure. This +8 for free that you speak of...does not exist. New players now have the same exact pool of 39 base attribute points that characters have always had. They simply start with an even spread now ( 8/8/7/8/8 ) unlike how it was in the past. That probably explains why it is "undiscussed" as most people actually know this. Really? I was wondering why giving those +8s (or as you more accurately say: 39 "free" attribute points) are ok and if CCP changes that to 40 points or 45 points people start to behave like the world is ending and threaten to ragequit? What if people had always started with 40 points instead of 39? Would you also campaign to reduce those to 39? Why the hysteria and anger about starter attribute points? The point here is of course to prove that people are against any form of change itself and not so much against the situation that will be caused by it as such because it's all 100% arbitrary. Regards, the Fenring broad
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.14 08:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Pantload It's interesting you'd mention hysteria and rage over attribute points. You realize the hysteria and rage is on the part of people like you and that Jasdemi and all the others who want the learning skills gone. I don't see anything hysterical in wanting to make this a more attractive game for new players and getting a bit more value for your money. As you know I also think that with a skillqueue of 30 years, learning skills are a bit nonsensical. And in fact I still haven't seen any good and valid argument against, I've seen a lot of anger and insults instead. Originally by: Pantload You people are the ones hysterical about this. All from a series of offhanded quotes by CCP member during a random Q&A. Sure. It was actually also mentioned in some dev thread. But however you want to intepret those CCP quotes, it's definitely not: "we like the learning skills as they are and we don't have any intention of changing the current leraning skill system". If granting the skills and reimbursing the skill SP and book cost is an option to deal with some learning skills problem and giving them for mission rewards is another, it may give a slight indication of which directions CCP are considering with those skills. I'm not saying or even expecting that CCP is going to do something with this issue anytime soon but I think you must be really thick skulled if you think they're perfectly happy with the learning skills and how much time it costs to train them for new players and have no intention whatsoever to change it. Just like with all EVE related changes, they take their time.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.14 14:07:00 - [14] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 14/07/2010 14:10:18 Originally by: Pantload What I have always protested is you and all the other screamers getting a free hand out on this proposed welfare plan. That's the part I don't like. You people are unwilling to play the game as it is and so you want it changed to suit you better. If it has to be changed then so be it, but welfare handouts for you and the other screamers is not acceptable. What's against free stuff? You got 100k SP, expansions, ships for free, every new character gets some free money and a ship, you get 39 skillpoints for free to start with?! Why is all that ok and skillpoints isn't? And if starter characters get something for free, you also will get your SP reimbursed. So where it comes down to is that basically everyone gets 6 weeks of game time for free, you included. Yes I know you won't like this gift. And well many - if not most - of the people in favour of doing way with learning skills have them trained up anyway, most of us know that if CCP is going to do something about them it's most probably not going to happen this year. And true, the game suits me better without learning skills. I have the opinion that they're pointless and a waste of time and money. "As you know I also think that with a skillqueue of 30 years, learning skills are a bit nonsensical. In fact it may attract more players that way, generate more income, enabling CCP to attract more devs to deal with other issues a lot faster. Even new players in favour of learning skills wouldn't have missed them if they weren't there in the first place. Imho it's a logical step towards the future." So it may in the end benefit the game for us all, and you as well. But you don't want it just because you like all free things that EVE gives you but you won't accept it if we all get 6 weeks of free SP so starting players will have an easier time. I see no logic in that. I'd really like to see some better argument than "welfare handouts for you and the other screamers is not acceptable". If you have any.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.14 14:57:00 - [15] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 14/07/2010 14:59:46 Originally by: Pantload blah blah Wel it's clear you don't want any gifts and actually dispise them, perhaps you hate santa claus and thanksgiving too (I presume you're american, if not: your local present exchanging holidays)? - Still you don't answer my argument that no learning skills will attract more people. There's a lot of posts from people with friends who really didn't want to bother with learning skills so didn't sign up after trial. So no use denying that point. - Also more people playing -> more money for CCP -> more resoruces to attract devs to improve upon the game. Also no word from you to counter this argument. - 6 weeks of "free time" - I mean skilling time, not playing time. Everyone gets the learning skills to 5 and a refund for what you already had. It doesn't advantage me more or less than you. And new players also don't get 6 weeks of free time, they get the SP. Just like you and me. I must say I still haven't read anything else than "welfare handouts for you and the other screamers is not acceptable" as your counterargument. Giving away skills "don't promote people to do for themselves"? What the hell is that supposed to mean, game-wise?
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.15 08:11:00 - [16] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 15/07/2010 08:16:54 Originally by: Jasdemi So in less than 3 months you made over 5m SP with a new char? Obvious troll is obvious. Ehm I don't want to interfere but in the first year you can make like 23-24 million SP on a character, provided you know what you're doing remapping-wise and having a financial backup for +5 implants. For instance: my alt is from march 2010 and has 8.5 million SP in less than 4.5 months now. Max skillspeed after the double 1.6m time is 2,770 SP/hour. That's almost 66.5k a day, ~2 millon a month, 24.3 million a year. Of course you're not going to make that as in the first year you train learning skills - so perfect remapping is impossible as they all have different attributes (the tier 2 versions) and just skilling either int/mem and per/wil will still leave out navigation and drones (and social, PI, leadership), making the character rather limited. Next to that you don't have 5/5 in all learning skills after the 1.6m period yet so you're not up to speed then. Really optimizing skilltraining will have your character be rather limited the first months (half a year) anyway as you'll be training learning skills and int/mem support skills only.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.15 15:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Aganazer Hello, I am a new player that just started two weeks ago. snip You¦re 100% sure you¦re not somebody¦s alt? It sounds very unprobable that someone loves to spend 4,500,000 ISK cost per book because he doesn't know what to with the money and spends 6 weeks of learning skills with great joy. And what "not sure what skills to train and what skills are important" is concerned, there's plenty of basic skills like Engineering, Electronics, Cap skills to be trained for weeks. Very hard to believe your story. Go troll somewhere else.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.15 19:49:00 - [18] Originally by: Maximus Mordel Screening through all these post I noticed something. There are few new players complaining about learning skills, but plenty of people starting another account that are wanting learning skills gone. It appears that the new alt experience is the proplem...not the new player experience. That's kind of a illogical statement as we all have been new players and experienced the learning skills phenomenon with more or less annoyance. Are you only allowed to dislike the learning skills if you haven't played for 2 months yet? Originally by: Pantload You are either the most miserable 1 month old player I've ever seen or you are just another alt. In the second case, post with your main. I have no intention of posting with my main, Miss Fenring is just a forum alt. And I play for ~6 months now so no, I'm no veteran.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.15 20:34:00 - [19] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 15/07/2010 20:35:26 Originally by: Pantload You admit you're an alt and you admit you don't want anyone knowing who your main is. That doesn't do good things for your credibility. Especially considering you dog-piling the other person for being an alt. I'm not denying anything and I never did. What has credibility to do with forum alts or mains? It's the same person. The arguments are still either valid or not. What's logical remains logical. But you have some strange ideas about this too I guess? "posting for free without working for it" perhaps?
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.15 21:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Pantload You don't see the obvious hypocrisy of you only posting on an alt ( because for reasons unknown you don't want us to know your main ). Explain to me what exactly is hypocritical about posting with an alt? Who knows you're also an alt of an even older player, explain to me what does it matter?!?! I definitely don't care.

Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.18 18:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Mag's Some of the heated replies in this thread, are one of the main reasons this is such a difficult choice for CCP to make. I doubt it. What this forum lacks are polls. How on earth CCP is ever going to find out what their community wants without the bias of a hard shouting minority? Anyway I think learning skills will be taken care of .. in 18 months or so ..
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.19 23:12:00 - [22] Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 19/07/2010 23:17:58 Originally by: Aganazer It could be that CCP is perfectly happy with the overall rate of skill progression right now. They could remove the learning skills while at the same time make all the other skills take a few percent longer to learn to compensate for the time we would normally spend learning the learning skills. That would definitely solve the problems of new players and the annoying 1st weeks! I'm all in favour of this. With or without compensation. Originally by: Aganazer In this hypothetical solution, it would take the exact same amount of time to get top ranked skills. I have a feeling that isn't what most of the anti-learning people really want. I bet that what most of the anti-learning people really want is a shorter path to max out their skills. Personally I'd be in favour. But a general boost to skilling would be welcome, I wouldn¦t mind a slightly higher max and for instance no remaps so we¦re rid of that too and people can¦t accidentily screw up their character for a whole year. You shouldn't neccessarily have to be a spreadsheet freak to be able to play and enjoy EVE. Or risking remarks that you're lagging behind because you made all the wrong calculations and descicions in the beginning. Or that you have to be patient and wait 6 weeks while mining to invest in the future. Or do learning skills and play another game in the meantime the coming month. Quote: How could you create a poll that won't attract a greed vote? As removing larning skills as in the original proposal intrinsically means 6 weeks of free Sp for everyone - and still clearly not everyone agrees at all I guess that's your answer .. Quote: How many of you anti-learning people would even care about learning skills if the plan to remove them would not change your net skill learning time? There's quite a few people - including myself - who would even be in favour of doing away with them if we woudln't get SP refund just because we think it would make the game and the new player experience better and more worthy of the game than this artificial timesink. Too bad we can't make polls.
Jennifer Fenring Amarr	Posted - 2010.07.19 23:26:00 - [23] Originally by: Felix Esperium You didn't play before remaps were introduced, did you? I played with 3 base perception for a pretty long time and my character isn't broken... But something strange happened to his neck!! Broken is a bit very definite but it's pretty frustrating, even with remaps. I restarted because of that (only after a few months though); EVEmon clearly showed that I'd better start all over than continuing on your current path .. was a good moment to bring everything I'd learned into practice and pick another race.

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